Death sentence for --daniel

[trippingthelight]

I've already assumed I'm nutritionally deficient in many things, given my former "western" diet of meat, fat and carbs. About three weeks ago, I took the plunge and became vegan, and am now loading up with organic foods that are loaded with minerals and other good stuff.

Daniel have you never looked at Keto? Ditch the carbs, thats where the issues lie, not the fat. You said yourself the vitamin content of fruit and veg these days has halved and fruit has lots more sugar and less nutrients than days of old and engineered for sweetness. Plus protein from legumes is not a whole source of aminos and not sufficient as a single protein source. Without supplements you'd have to eat LOTS to fulfil all needs.

Maybe vegan on one half of the plate and carnivore/Keto on the other side

[Ilkka]

Ditch the carbs, thats where the issues lie, not the fat. You said yourself the vitamin content of fruit and veg these days has halved and fruit has lots more sugar and less nutrients than days of old and engineered for sweetness. Plus protein from legumes is not a whole source of aminos and not sufficient as a single protein source. Without supplements you'd have to eat LOTS to fulfil all needs.

You would still need carbs, because generally human diet needs carbs and protein. Balance is the thing that is needed in my opinion. Fat is just carbs different ones at that, like butter. Long chain carbohydrates takes more time to digest I think it would be better for your health than short chain ones like sugars, which go pretty much straight to body fat. Fructose (which is one of the two monosaccharides that white sugar metabolises into) goes into your liver and thats why some people have problems (fat accumulates into liver much like alcoholics tend to have, so white sugar with alcohol is kind of combination that would be the end of your liver, eventually) with their liver, because they've been eating too much white sugar products.

If veggies and fruits lack vitamins and other nutrients then you just need to eat more of them, they have fibers so thats good for digestion so I dont think you would get more fatter by just eating fruits and veggies, because there would be some large vegans around, thus far I haven't seen anyone who is vegan and overweight. If someone is like so then they've just started to become vegan. Also fruit and other plant sugars are quite different from just white sugar, because of fibers, they take longer time to metabolize and therefore much less goes to straight to your body fat into storage.

Got a bit carried away there to overweightness, but it is one thing that bring all sorts of ailments with it. I dont think Keto works at all, you'll just create some other issues that needs to be fixed inside your body. I think it is just torture, no need to create more stress than you already have, more energy that way to combat the disease.

I think I said this before somewhere here or AQ forum. I suggest raw onions or garlic for some good health (for the lack of better word, got my vocabulary all twisted now cant quite form proper sentences at this hour, maybe I am out of practise ).

[trippingthelight]

You would still need carbs, because generally human diet needs carbs and protein.

This is false, humans do not need carbs at all, its the only macronutrient we CAN live without, carnivore keto operates quite happily with next to zero carbs, anything needed is created form the fat intake with gluconeogenesis. I personally have around 20-30grams of carbs per day which is solely from the greens I have. I've lost tons of weight, got stronger and leaner and felt good. I'm 3 stone lighter than I was at my peak weight yet I'm lifting the same weight I was back then. Producing Ketones is a cleaner energy production and you can thrive on it. I'm sure humans carb intake was generally quite low before supermarkets and corporations shoved sugars in everything.

If veggies and fruits lack vitamins and other nutrients then you just need to eat more of them

How often per day are vegans supposed to eat to consume all these vitamins and nurtients from plants? A vegan diet would anyway be natually low in carbs and high in fibre (fibre isn't broken down by the body and studies have shown that an increase in fibre intake can cause blockages and bowel cancer) so they wouldn't get fat but I'm highly sceptical of how 'healthy' a vegan diet is, their protein and fat intake wouldn't be sufficient.

Out of choice I consume lots of greens as there are far more vitamins in greens than in fruit. Vitamin C in oranges for example pales in comparison to Kale and Peppers which contain no sugars.

Fat is just carbs different ones at that, like butter.

Not sure what this means, but butter is fat not carbs. Natural solid fats should be used as a whole and not vegetabel oils as these are highly unstable when heated and loaded with omega 6 which although it is said to be good, when it is vastly out of balance with omega 3 its is not good and as everything has vegetable oils in, this balance very quickly sways the wrong way.

[Ilkka]

How often per day are vegans supposed to eat to consume all these vitamins and nurtients from plants? A vegan diet would anyway be natually low in carbs and high in fibre (fibre isn't broken down by the body and studies have shown that an increase in fibre intake can cause blockages and bowel cancer) so they wouldn't get fat but I'm highly sceptical of how 'healthy' a vegan diet is, their protein and fat intake wouldn't be sufficient.

Out of choice I consume lots of greens as there are far more vitamins in greens than in fruit. Vitamin C in oranges for example pales in comparison to Kale and Peppers which contain no sugars.

This one:

Triglycerides are the main constituents of body fat in humans and other vertebrates, as well as vegetable fat.

And this:

When the body requires fatty acids as an energy source, the hormone glucagon signals the breakdown of the triglycerides by hormone-sensitive lipase to release free fatty acids. As the brain cannot utilize fatty acids as an energy source (unless converted to a ketone),[7] the glycerol component of triglycerides can be converted into glucose, via gluconeogenesis by conversion into dihydroxyacetone phosphate and then into glyceraldehyde 3-phosphate, for brain fuel when it is broken down. Fat cells may also be broken down for that reason if the brain's needs ever outweigh the body's.

These are from here

butter is fat not carbs. Natural solid fats should be used as a whole and not vegetabel oils as these are highly unstable when heated and loaded with omega 6 which although it is said to be good, when it is vastly out of balance with omega 3 its is not good and as everything has vegetable oils in, this balance very quickly sways the wrong way.

Check this about fat and other triglycerides and how they behave in metabolism. So you know more about fats being carbs (energy source) when they breakdown.

This is why I use term carbs for fats, because they are being metabolised as such.

I guess it would be somewhat possible to live on just protein, but I dont know, because every energy source thus far that I know of; meat and plants have both proteins and carbs. Animals have fat also, people in far north live off of whale and seal meat and fat, as do Reindeer herders in Northern Russia. Plants have oils which have triglycerides that in turn give off glucose as it is mentioned in above wikipedia quote.

So this way it is very hard to get just protein only, dont you think?

[trippingthelight]

So this way it is very hard to get just protein only, dont you think?

Not sure why you would think that is what I suggested? I never said you could live off just protein. Protein is essential, yes, fats are essential, carbs are NOT.
The golden nugget in your quotes is this '(unless converted to a ketone),' I think your trying to apply glucose based energy production to the keto framework I was describing, its different which is why it works.

Although most people run on carbohydrates (glucose), studies are now showing that burning fats (ketones) for energy is the healthier alternative.

Your body can burn two fuels for energy: carbs or fat. Carbs are converted into glucose whereas fats are converted into ketones by the liver. The process of turning fat into ketones is called ketogenesis. Whenever you stop giving your body a constant supply of carbs and glycogen stores are emptied — such as during a ketogenic diet, fasting, or intense exercise — your body seeks out stored or dietary fat to turn it into ketones for energy.

“In the absence of dietary carbohydrate, de novo synthesis of glucose requires amino acids derived from the hydrolysis of endogenous or dietary protein or glycerol derived from fat. Therefore, the marginal amount of carbohydrate required in the diet in an energy-balanced state is conditional and dependent upon the remaining composition of the diet.”

You will find hundreds of thousands of pages regarding ketone production and hundreds of studies, this was the first site I found that gets to the point.
https://graemethomasonline.com/carbohyd ... uirements/

“In the absence of dietary carbohydrate, de novo synthesis of glucose requires amino acids derived from the hydrolysis of endogenous or dietary protein or glycerol derived from fat. Therefore, the marginal amount of carbohydrate required in the diet in an energy-balanced state is conditional and dependent upon the remaining composition of the diet.”

Restrict carb intake (grains, flour, starches etc) and increase fat intake, the liver produces ketones for energy production and if it needs to it can create any amount of glucose it needs

[Ilkka]

Not sure why you would think that is what I suggested? I never said you could live off just protein. Protein is essential, yes, fats are essential, carbs are NOT.
The golden nugget in your quotes is this '(unless converted to a ketone),' I think your trying to apply glucose based energy production to the keto framework I was describing, its different which is why it works.

Not sure if you read this part right after that ketone conversion:

the glycerol component of triglycerides can be converted into glucose, via gluconeogenesis by conversion into dihydroxyacetone phosphate and then into glyceraldehyde 3-phosphate, for brain fuel when it is broken down. Fat cells may also be broken down for that reason if the brain's needs ever outweigh the body's.

I tend to get tangled up into details sometimes and doesn't give off clearer image that I mean or forget to mention it. Thats what I meant about it being converted to glucose also and it appears to convert others aswell so it has more aspects that I originally thought. I haven't done extensive research into ketones nor other metabolism so I am not an expert just relaying the info I have gotten.

Although most people run on carbohydrates (glucose), studies are now showing that burning fats (ketones) for energy is the healthier alternative.

This one is quite funny since in Finland the news have been on and off against butter (and animal fats) for many years now. It has been suggested to use and then not and then again to be used
Mainly and lately they suggest plant oils and fats which have been better for health through ages.

Restrict carb intake (grains, flour, starches etc) and increase fat intake, the liver produces ketones for energy production and if it needs to it can create any amount of glucose it needs

I've done this one, well the part of lowering carb intake in my daily meals. I've added lentils instead so I get dietary fibers that way and protein too.

---- I did took a look at Ketone under there in the section of Biochemistry it said about the thing that was buried deep inside my memory about ketones called ketose. If you take a look at the link and see how much stuff it has in other links I think you probably would come to same conclusions with me.
At this point I think that all this carb, fat and keto is just playing with words of same energy sources that are sugars. Ketones and carbohydrates appear to be a bit different sugars only, but still the same affect as energy source. Fat would be having the effect of yielding both kinds of sugars in the need.
I think we should rest our case here then and agree on the thing that both are sugars, which is evident of their similar molecular structure.

[trippingthelight]

Ilkka, really not sure we are reading from the same page as you seem to suggest that ketones are sugars? Yes the body can convert fatty acids into glucose when and if needed. It really is a multi faceted topic but saying x amount of fat and x amount of carbs = the same inside the body is wrong. The liver creates ketones from dietary fat or body fat when in ketosis as there is no dietary glucose. Restricting the body of dietary carbs also doesn't raise insulin therfore does not promote fat storage. By restricting carbs you are also restricting grains and sugars which are inflammatory. You mention 'plant oils', these are the ultra-processed seed oils that I mention that throw the omega 3 and omega 6 balance out of sync and again cause inflammation. Why would these 'plant oils' that have only been mass produced in the last 60-70 years through these processes: Cleaning and Grinding of Oil Seeds, Pressing Oil Seeds, Using Solvents to Obtain Maximum Yield of Oil,Solvent Retrieval,Filtering,Processing, Refining - be more beneficial that animal fats? Have a look here:

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-top ... is-better/
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-top ... ated-oils/

If you want to PM me that is fine.

[Ilkka]

Ilkka, really not sure we are reading from the same page as you seem to suggest that ketones are sugars? Yes the body can convert fatty acids into glucose when and if needed. It really is a multi faceted topic but saying x amount of fat and x amount of carbs = the same inside the body is wrong. The liver creates ketones from dietary fat or body fat when in ketosis as there is no dietary glucose. Restricting the body of dietary carbs also doesn't raise insulin therfore does not promote fat storage. By restricting carbs you are also restricting grains and sugars which are inflammatory.

It was said like this in wikipedia:

Many sugars are ketones, known collectively as ketoses. The best known ketose is fructose, which exists as a cyclic hemiketal, which masks the ketone functional group.

This one too:

Many ketones are known and many are of great importance in industry and in biology. Examples include many sugars (ketoses) and the industrial solvent acetone, which is the smallest ketone.

The question is that how much of fat is converted to sugars etc. That I do not know, but I guess it is quite much because some other ketones are obviously toxic to human health such as acetone.

You mention 'plant oils', these are the ultra-processed seed oils that I mention that throw the omega 3 and omega 6 balance out of sync and again cause inflammation. Why would these 'plant oils' that have only been mass produced in the last 60-70 years through these processes: Cleaning and Grinding of Oil Seeds, Pressing Oil Seeds, Using Solvents to Obtain Maximum Yield of Oil,Solvent Retrieval,Filtering,Processing, Refining - be more beneficial that animal fats?

I referred plant oils as natural ones, that are quite small amounts in seeds for example. I am not sure if there would be better term to use, nothing better comes to mind now.

Many (if not all) animal fats and some "plant/vegetable fats" are hard fats that increase your "bad cholesterol", that way butter is not good for you after all, same goes for coconut butter (if memory serves it being "hard fat").

[Lozion]

daniel, how is your health? Haven't heard from you in a while..

[Djchrismac]

daniel, how is your health? Haven't heard from you in a while..

The latest update is from 3 weeks ago on Facebook:

Daniel Phoenix III
Unfortunately, not too well. I had my checkup yesterday and my PSA has passed 400... not a good sign. I suppose I have to be patient, though, as the dietary changes I've made and the anti-cancer supplements take time to work. It is a little frightening, though, having this "Sword of Damocles" hanging over my head.

Mary Tecoma
I really hope you're following the Medical Medium protocols. Remember, low fats, no dairy, no refined sugar, no gluten (so no grains like wheat). Avoid all GMO foods and eat only certified organic.
Have you a good juicer? That can make it a lot easier to get your healthies in.

Daniel Phoenix III
Mary Tecoma Yes, I am organic vegan, no sugar, no wheat, all GMO free. I have a juicer and use it daily; I make a LOT of juice in the morning (48 oz) that includes carrot, celery, apple, lemon, ginger, garlic and turmeric. It's about the best I can do, but going from carnivore to vegan seems to take time for my body to adjust. It is kind of confused on what to do with the nutrients!

I messaged a few weeks ago on FB and just realised I got no reply, going to email Gopi to ask for an update.